How will a Positional Ruling be made in this unique scenario?

[Natalie Portman]

The chances are extremely likely that the Atlanta Falcons will open this regular season with Michael Koenen as their #1 starting Punter and as their #1 starting Placekicker.

This presents asituation unlike typical decisions EFS must occasionally make regarding positional declaration. In a traditional scenario, when a player might be a quasi-OLB/DE or OG/OT, EFS can get assistance from the NFL team's official website, a consensus of published depth charts and the positions listed in NFL Gamebooks for pre-season games.

In this case with Michael Koenen, we're talking about a player who would be the listed and recognized starter at both positions according to all of the sources typically used to provide an answer via some form of specification or differentiation.

Whether EFS declares him as XK or XP, it's obvious that EFS teams who own this player will be in a favorable spot, butthe positionaldesignation chosen by EFS will affect the extent to which teams starting Michael Koenen might benefit. There are only two options:

--If he is designated as an EFS Placekicker, then a team starting him would basically have the advantage of an extra Punter's points. They would get credit for the points scored by their starting Punter, the points scored by Michael Koenen kicking Field Goals & PATs, plus the points Michael Koenen posted while he was punting the football.

--If he is designated as an EFS Punter, then a team starting him would basically have the advantage of an extra Placekicker's points. They would get credit for the points scored by their starting Placekicker, the points scored by Michael Koenen punting the football, plus the points Michael Koenen posted while kicking Field Goals & PATs.

Comparing how those two options would manifest themselves, something jumps out quite glaringly.

--On a week-in and week-out basis, Punters in EFS are possibly the most stable scorers of any position. They put up a number in the teens almost every time. If your Punter scores less than 10 points, something unusual likely went wrong. If your Punter scores more than 20 points, it willonly be a few pointsmore, and it's probably going to end up as his best week of the year.

--By contrast, on a week-in and week-out basis, the Placekicker positionin EFSis one of the most volatile scorers. Getting a score of less than 10 points from your Placekicker for a given week is a reality that must be accepted a certain number of times every year for even the best players at the position in the NFL. We all know about the situational aspect of getting opportunities for Field Goals, andan elite Placekicker who hasa day of4 for4 on PATs, with no Field Goals attempted,will net his EFS ownera very frustrating4 points.

The key difference to note about this whole thingcomes when a Placekicker has a good day.It is a position with a different kind of scoring upside than the Punter offers. APlacekicker who goes 3 for 3 on Field Goal attempts of 41, 50 and 51 yards has had a very solid day, but he certainly hasn’t added a new chapter to the NFL record book. Throw in the likelihood of a few PATs and this player has just put up a score of 45 points.

A Placekicker can approach and surpass 40 points in a game without anything unusual, unlikely or extremely rare taking place. A Punter will seldom surpass 20 points and never by very much. On one occasion last year, Michael Koenen wasgiven a chance and made good ona 58-yard Field Goal at the end of a first half. Aside from that instance, the highest score by any Punter in all of 2005 was 26 points achieved just once.Two other times, aPunter scored 24 points, and there were three times when ascore of 23 was reached. Every other weekly Punting performancethroughout the complete2005 NFL scheduletranslated into 22 or fewer EFS points.

Without any legitimate basis for deciding whether Michael Koenen’s situation should define him as XK or XP in EFS, it seems logical that the prudent approachwould be to prefer a minimized scoring aberration during any given week.

Assuming that Michael Koenen indeed enters this season as Atlanta’s starting Placekicker as well as their starting Punter, designating him as a Placekicker for EFS would serve to reduce the likelihood of dramatically inflated scoring. Teams starting Michael Koenen would benefit from the virtual equivalent of a 25th starter who scores points in the manner associated with that of a Punter.

[Vizzini]

A well thought out arguement, but as he was listed as a punter last year he should stay classified as a punter. My team is set up with him as a punter and classifying him as a kicker would give me 3 kickers and no punters.

Also your arguement assumes he will keep both positions all year, but it is no guarantee he will get and/orkeepboth jobs all year. A couple of missed FG attempts and the Falcons will bring in another kicker and keep him solely as a punter.

I picked him up last year as a punter when I realized he was doubling up as the Falcons long distance FG kicker. That can hurt as much as help, if he makes a long one you get the points, but if he misses you obviously lose points. I believe he was one out of two last year.

The fact that I have him onall of my teams has no influence on my arguement. ;)

[FantasyGM]

My guess is that he'll stay as a punter since his position is not "changing". I have him in one league and welcome the chance to have him punt and kick for me this year. It's like having 2 kickers and a punter goingfor you each week...If you got'em, enjoy.

[tec]

there is some talk at the Falcons site of converting Koenen to be the PK and the other guy would become the Punter.....a case of 'stay tuned' to see how this works out...



tc

[JungleHamsters]

i would assume whatever position he starts the year as? just like any other player. If he lines up as a kicker first a XK, a punter a XP

[jwsmen]

Technically, placekickers and punters do not start so they are not listed in the gamebook at a specific position designation. That logic really only applies to the 11 starters on each side of the ball. Since in all probability, if he holds down both jobs and punts and kicks on week 1 then nothing is decided. Also, since some punters kick off, it is not a true indicator on which duty he will hold.

While there are valid arguments for each side, I believe if he makes the final roster as both the starting punter and placekicker, his position should change to XK and he would garner the XP points but helps to balance out the scoring anomoly it will create.

Even if he were to lose his placekicking duties during the season, he will still earn punting points if his position is PK. It's a tough call either way. The argument that he was a punter last year so he should be a punter this year doesn't hold water though. Players change positions every year. This is a unique scenario and special circumstances require special answers. My suggestion is to move him to XK if he wins the job for week 1.

Jason

[jwsmen]

Mr. Lorenz,

Since you feel compelled to acquire the services of Michael Koenen in Lg 666 I would appreciate it if a formal ruling on this issue is posted ASAP. As part of the EFS management team, it seems a little shady to be acquiring the above mentioned player without stating his total value in the forums as this is a previous open issue prior to your trade being posted. If he indeed stays as a punter then his value will be greatly increased. Even if he is converted to a placekicker, his increased value is considerable compared to other placekickers.

In my opinion, a formal announcement to his status should have been made site wide before an acting member of the EFS Management Team attempted to acquire such a player.

Regards,

Jason Smen
Lg 666

[paladisiac]

The way it looks right now, all major websites are calling him a punter including atlantafalcons.com (player page). So far in preseason he's not doing kickoffs, just punting & fg's. i'd classify him as a punter.

[perriconer]

Something should be done about this immediately. The way it stands now, Koenen will be the MVP of EFS. How can an average XP/XK be an MVP of any fantasy league? It will make a mockery of EFS sports and turn the greatest fantasy website into a sham.

I made mention of this a few years ago and got shot down. You should NOT get points for both kicking and punting. One or the other. It's the same thing with RB/FB if the guy is a full time RB then he should not get the benefit of FB points.

[JungleHamsters]

First its not the same as a the olf FB/RB thing. Konen will be playing both positions full time if he wins the kicking job.

Droughns when he was a FB but ended up being denvers RB wasnt playing FB just RB so there its already different.

Koenen will be Kicking full time and punting full time, so he does deserve both set of points.

The only thing that should be argumented is what position he will be.

Kickers last year averaged (real rough numbers) about 12 points a game, Punters though about 14-15

So if he is clasified as a XP then you still have to start a a Xk that will average 12 points, though if he is a XK, then you also get to start a XP that averags 14-15

[FantasyGM]

perriconer wrote: Something should be done about this immediately. The way it stands now, Koenen will be the MVP of EFS. How can an average XP/XK be an MVP of any fantasy league? It will make a mockery of EFS sports and turn the greatest fantasy website into a sham.

I made mention of this a few years ago and got shot down. You should NOT get points for both kicking and punting. One or the other. It's the same thing with RB/FB if the guy is a full time RB then he should not get the benefit of FB points.


This makes no sense to me, how can you even make an argument for him not to receive fantasy points for what he does on the field? So if he misses or makes 3 FG's in a game that shouldn't count for me or against me? IF we do this, then Mike Vick should not get any points for his rushing yards...I mean he's a damm QB for pete sake and QB's don't run the ball. The Titans used their punter a few years back on long FG attempts, these things happen from time to time. Out of my all my leagues, I have him in just one. The fact that I will most likely face teams that do have him is no way an unfair advantage. I'm sorry but this is a poor argument for a fantasy game based on -on field performance.

[perriconer]

It's not the same thing. Kicking is a special teams position. It is really the only situation where something like this can occur, unless we get another Danny White into the league. A kicker should get points for either or, not both.

If a guy starts at OT and moves to OG, during the game, does he get points for both? No. That is a closer analogy.


This is an unfair advantage that rewards luck. Koenan is average at best. He is FA in one of my leagues and his bid is up to 20MM. This isn't the type of fantasy league I signed up for, where an average kicker is worth 20mm and 10-15 pts more than the best punter in the league.

[perriconer]

QB's don't run the ball? That is the funniest thing I ever heard. QB's have been runnung the ball since the Fran Tarkinton and Roger Staubach days. Running the ball is part of the position for a QB. Don't even try to compare the two situations

[jwsmen]

Guys,

A more comparable scenario is Terrance McGee CB Bills. He is also a Pro Bowl kick returner. He gets credit for performing both duties and he does them at different times in the game.

Koenen will not punt and kick simultaneously. He does one at a time which is why the scoring will be reflected. I never argued that he shouldn't earn points for both efforts, I just think he should be listed as an XK not an XP in EFS due to the potential difference in scoring he could earn each week.

Grant it, he could go negative as an XK and if he is listed as an XP it would hurt his score more then if he was listed as an XK. There are pros and cons to whichever position is listed as his primary and it is very similar to the Mike Anderson's, Greg Jones' and Nick Goings' of the world.

There are also rumors of DeAngelo Hall playing offense this year for Atlanta and don't forget Mike Vrabel's TD's during goal line. Even Warren Sapp and Julius Peppers have lined up on offense. And don't forget the Tackle eligible plays as well. Remember Jumbo Elliott?

The beef seems to be the frequency of Koenen's ability to score points vs. these other examples. A more reasonable solution for '07 might be to reduce the scoring for XP's on other kicking categories to reduce the impact if a punter does place kick. We could do the same for XK's who punt on occasion which also happens.

The real issue here in my mind is no one from EFS Management has come out and made a formal statement as to what we are going to do and why. That is why my gripe started.

I agree with Fantasy GM, it does happen from time to time at positions and there is nothing in stone saying Koenen will be a double duty guy all year. He may be too inconsistent at placekicking to hold the job all year or he may have his punting duties taken from him if he shows good proficiently at placekicking. We will have to see how it plays out.

[perriconer]

Good points Jason. But the key argument is that in none of those other scenerios does the guy play both positions full time. This is a unique situation where the player has a good chance at playing both positions full time. It can't be done at any other position in football except kicking. I never liked the EFS punter scoring anyway. A XP can punt once kick a horrible punt 40 yards on the line get it returned for a TD and he gets 12 points for the day. I like punter scoring and I think we should have it, but all punters basically average the same yardage 38-45 yards which comes out to 11-13 pts just for yardage per punter. That is just a difference of 2 pts from the worst to the best. I think I have a solution. Eliminate the yardage points, reward for I 20 and FC's, and take away for TB's and there should also be a negative for TD's against. give like 1 point for an average over 40 2 for over 45 3 for over 50 etc. I think this could be a suggestion for 2007. The diffeence from worst punter to best punter will be the same. Someone like Koenan who does both would have to be listed as XK for this to work. He would probably only get an extra 2-3 points per day on average.

Maybe this could be tested this year or in 2007. I know we have a few beta leagues.

[perriconer]

Also, glad you brought up Mcgee. He is a pro bowl returner, but he only averaged 2-3 pts per game in return points. Return pooints are tough to get in EFS. Punting points are easy. If Hall plays some offense it would surely take away from his natural CB position. I remember when Sanders played O for the cowboys in a series, he would then sit out most of if not all of the next def series. So it balances out.

[JungleHamsters]

Perri, a Punter losing points for a TD returned is riduculus as he is not responsible for covering the kick.

And I think konen should get punting and kicking points as most agree, he does both jobs, end of story in my books

I see jwsmen point of having him rated as a XK as if he is an XP then you will have 2 XK's and the potential to have them both blow up and score 90 points with your kickers.

where if Koenen is an XK the potential is probably more closer to 50-60.

So i definetly think he shoudl be marked as XK if he does indeed win the kicking job

[perriconer]

You are totally wrong Hamsters. The punters main responsibility is keeping the ball up in the air long enough so that his coverage has a chance to cover the kick. If he kicks 50 yard low line drives they will more easily be brought back for big yardage. Why do you think hang time is so important? The punter is the main reason why punts are brought back or not.

You seem to not know much about football will all due respect.

1) QB's don't rush the ball
2) punters aren't responsible for punt coverage

WOW!!!!!

[perriconer]

Sorry that was 2 different people. My bad. Everyone can make one mistake

[mikea]

well the way i see it every Sunday each league will have 15 PISSED off owner and one happy one if they allow this Garo Yepremian look alike to decide games on Sunday...boy how would all the owners feel at the end of the year if more than half of the super bowls were won by teams with this Kicker on their rosters....would EFS allow this to happenin futureyears as well....allowing a player to generate double points as a kickerand then generate double points as a punter is crazy actually suicidal for EFS... its going to be even tough with giving him XK status getting double points and then that ownerwill have an additional punt er... a FB can get RB points but RB cant get FB points...a RB never gets credit for OL points like a FB ... XK should only be allowed to get XK points and XP should only allowed to get XP yea i know i don't have this guy anywhere but having 15 pissed of owners isn't good for business.....games on Sunday shouldn't be decided by this technicality.....i hope they decide soon... 20 million for a kicker...

[FantasyGM]

I also agree with Hamsters and jwsmen1, I don't care what position he's listed under, as long as he gets points (+ and -) for what he does on the field. And since your such a big expert, how many other QB's in the league have the potential to rush for 100 yards other than Vick? No current QB comes close to the potential Vick has. You might get 20 yards from someone one week but rushing factors into Vick's overall fantasy value more than any other QB. He should receive points for ALL is yardage produced on the field as should Koenen.

That OT to OG example makes no sense, players across the line can move in and out throughout a game and the scoring is set-up differently for this position (starters vs. played -> based on total offensive output). Once the season begins and the positions are locked this doesn't matter. Tarik Glenn could start a game and move to OG or OC throughout the game. He started the game and his position is OT so he receives points accordingly.

So what if someone bids 20m on a punter/ kicker in your league. This only impacts this teams ability to make future moves. If someone wants to bid that much, so-be-it. One less person to worry about when you want to bid on someone.

I'm still looking for a valid argument as to why this is an unfair advantage. All I've read is that it's unfair for him to receive points for kicking and punting. Bring a valid argument to the table based on facts and numbers and not just your own opinion. I'm not going to go to Tom and Sid with, "Well, this one guys said it's not fair".

[JungleHamsters]

I dont think any of them can bring a valid argument to why he shouldnt score both....

The only argument should be what he is listed if he in fact wins the Kicking job as well. And pretty much i agree he should be listed as XK so the potential of ascoring huge from your kickers is reduced

[perriconer]

Stop with the Vick comparison already. Even with his running Vick is still an average EFS QB. His lack of throwing abilitity makes up for his tremendous running abilitly. Part of the QB position is being able to run the ball for many QB's. It's the same as RB's and receiving yards that is part of the position.

MY argument is that an average punter and, probably, a less than average kicker is going to have far more value than any other kicker or punter in the league. My argument is that its an unfair advantage that rewards luck.

The bid is now up to 22 mm. I hope he at least gets switched to XK, becasue that will be just a 13-14 point advantage. I/O the potential 20+ advantage if he remains XP.

The more I think about it the more I can't believe you guys are ok with this. There should be no "advantage" regarding a situation like this. It just boggles my mind. You guys must have him. There are many money leagues in EFS and if this is what decides a championship or a higher placed finish then there will be many pissed off owners.

This could totally skew the balance of many leagues, and I am not exagerrating this. In one money league (666) the difference between 1st and 4th was 9 points last year 443-434. In league 747 the difference from 2nd to 6th was also 9 points from 392-383. There would be many ramifications for leaving this the way it is.



Are those valid enough arguments for you?

[perriconer]

Furthermore to what Fantasy GM said.

I like your example with the OL. If he starts the year as OG thhen he gets OG points if he starts as OT then he gets OT points no matter how he switches around. THe same should be done for punters and place kickers. If they start off the year as XK then he should just get XK points if he starts off the year as XP then he should get just XP points. Just like it is done with the OL. It is fair and it keeps everyone in balance and it doesn't reward luck

[JungleHamsters]

but if an OL gets a tackle, or if he scores a td, or whatever he still gets his points for it.

Koenen deserves to get the points for what he gets on the feild. and i dont have him in any leagues. And guess what sometimes you have to be lucky to win.

How bout TEs? shoudl we only score them points for recieving when they line up at TE, what about the ones that sometimes line up at Slot or WR? If they get a TD or a reception when playing those positions should efs exclude them?

[jwsmen]

This has been some interesting dialogue to say the least. It's funny, when a guy dominates his position for doing one thing no one seems to care. Neil Rackers was twice as good as the average kicker last year and many an owner reaped the benefits of having a 27pt placekicker.

Will he repeat that this year? Not likely but there is always a chance that someone will pull away from the pack. Look at Larry Johnson as another example he was head and shoulders above everyone in the 2nd half of the season and scores almost twice as much as every other RB.

If Koenen is talented enough to punt and placekick at an NFL level when almost every other specialist is not, why should he be penalized?

If Mike Vrabel gets a sack, fumble recovery and returns it 50 yrds for a TD and then later in the game scores an offensive TD from a Tom Brady pass, does he not deserve it? I mean, he wasn't a RB, TE, or WR. Why should he be allowed to get offensive points?

What if Vince Young turns out to be everything Michael Vick is not and actually runs like Vick but passes like Steve Young?

This is an experiment the Falcons are working with and we don't really know what will come out of it. If we reacted every single time an NFL team made an ajustment, there would be no rules just a bunch of moving targets.

There are a lot of what ifs. Is it fair for Craig Hentrich to not get credit or penalties for long field goal tries when Joe Nedney goes down for the year in week 1 of the season and the Titans trot out 87 year old Gary Anderson to kick from 40yrds and in and use Hentrich for the long tries?

What about when Josh Brown had to punt for the Seahawks one game because their punter got hurt making a special teams tackle? Should he not get credit for the extra duties?

My guess is that there will be a time this year when Koenen misses a long field goal and costs an owner a game and he will be complaining that he lost becuase his punter missed a field goal.

I still believe he should be listed as a place kicker this year if he is named the starter for both positions but I do not agree with strippping him of his point value.

He may not seem like a superstar, which is probably why he there is so much attention to this issue, but if he can perform two tasks at an NFL level and the Falcons take advantage of it then why shouldn't EFS owners as well?

My only gripe was that no one from EFS had made a ruling on this before Tom Lorenz decided to go hog wild trying to acquire his services without addressing the open issue on which position he will be listed as.

Let's get a ruling and put this thing to bed, please.

J

[perriconer]

You guys are totally missing my point. All those other examples come from within the guys position. QB's run. TE's catch. WR's run. RB's throw. Those same guys make tackles on interceptions and fumble recoveries. They are playing within their position. In the other examples if a WR plays DB he will lose out on some WR opportunities and he wont be a full time DB. He also wont get as many points as a guy who just makes an average punt one time during a game. This guy will be playing 2 separate positions full time. He will be the ONLY guy doing this in the whole NFL. It is separate from any other example and should NOT be compared to ANY other situation. True Rackers out kicked everyone last year, but that is because he got many chances and he converted them. If this guy is just an average punter and an average kicker he will still average about 13 pts more than any XK and 15 pts more than any XP. There is no skill involved. If Young runs for 100 yards a game so be it, that is within his ONE position as a QB.

Obviously no change can be made until this guy actually wins both jobs and performs both. Something may not be able to be done this year, but if its an ongoing year in year out situation then EFS will lose some of its players. I guarantee you that.


What about my solution, from a few posts back? I will copy and paste it

I like punter scoring and I think we should have it, but all punters basically average the same yardage 38-45 yards which comes out to 11-13 pts just for yardage per punter. That is just a difference of 2 pts from the worst to the best. I think I have a solution. Eliminate the yardage points, reward for I 20 and FC's, and take away for TB's and there should also be a negative for TD's against. give like 1 point for an average over 40 2 for over 45 3 for over 50 etc. I think this could be a suggestion for 2007. The diffeence from worst punter to best punter will be the same. Someone like Koenan who does both would have to be listed as XK for this to work. He would probably only get an extra 2-3 points per day on average.


Once again stop comparing this to other situations. Thsi is UNIQUE. He is the one and ONLY guy that has any chance at all of playing 2 positions full time.

[paladisiac]

Given that EFS is intended to reward player scoring no matter how they score, from Pats Pats DE scoring offensive TDs to punters throwing TDs (see Brad Maynard) and passing yds, i say Koenen should be allowed whatever points he scores at P and Pk. The question is which he should be. This is an advantage to whoever has him, but not unfair. (If you want him, bid high for him or trade high for him.) He's not guaranteed to score squat.

i think one way to resolve this is not a rules change on scoring but a rewards change on bonuses. Specifically, something like an in-season performance bonus. This would mid-season bump up the salary of defensive guys scoring a lot of offensive points or defensive backs with a lot of sacks or punters with a lotta field goal / extra points. This would reward the player, say around Nov. 1, for doing so well at something he doesn't normally do. The owner of such a player would have to account for this mid-season bonus by having enough salary cap around post- Nov.1.

This is just an idea, and this is not the forum for such ideas (they should be sent to Tom and Stan as Stan posted a few months ago), but it is one way to more properly compensate for such rare cases. The thinking is, if you have such a player, you'll see significantly more points from said player, but will also have to shell out some extra bonus salary for such a performance.

Anyway, i wish Tom or Stan would post on this matter, just to clear this up. You guys readin'??

[perriconer]

We already know how Tom will decide, since he is trying to acquire him in every league he can. It will be a tough pill to swallow when the 5th best team in a league becomes the best and the 7th best becomes the 2nd best and so on, because a guy played average at 2 positions.

[perriconer]

I am done arguing my point. You guys are probably sick and tired of reading about it.
I hope no one got upset I am just stating my opinion and how I perceive others might feel. EFS is still the best and it is the only league that would make people like me try to make my point. I just hope that this doesn't decide the winner in any leagues.

[jwsmen]

Rich,

I am not missing your point I assure you, I just don't see it the same way you do. However, to comment on your scoring method, I think it has merit and should be considered for review for '07. The only thing I don't agree on is penalizing the punter for a TD given up. We don't penalize QB's for INT's returned for TD's. They only get penalized for the INT and I view the punter in the same vein. We also don't penalize XK's for a kickoff for a TD. Some things are still team responsibilities and not the cause of just one individual.

Just my 2 cents.

J

[Pault351]

Rockey,

That mid-season bump idea sucks. I'm in four leagues and 70% of the owners in all my leagues are too tight against the cap for that idea to fly. Unless you reduce salary for underperformers (the way the NFL does, yeah right) or you apply it to the next year. I don't like that either. Just bury that one.

Paulie

[tec]

my feeling is he will be an aberration that wont last long. by last half of the season his kicking leg will be worn out, he wont be very good on FG's if he does the punting, FG and Kickoffs. Some EFS'ers will get a boost in their scoring while he handles both chores, but it wont last...just my prediction.

as much as i dislike the idea of a PK having 30+ ppg avg in EFS, if that is his production on the field then we cant argue against it....

tc

[JPN]

Though a few of Richie Perricone's arguments may not be impervious, I am most definitelycompletely on board with Perricone in spirit. And I certainly agree with Mike Adamczyk as well.

As for the proponents of double-scoring for a Special Teams player, it would take forever to discredit them all.

Simply put, toaward any Special Teams player "double credit" is distinguishable from an everydown player.

First off, the scoring isway out of whack.I haven't read thescoring inIdon't know how many years, but my feeling is that if a Punter goes out and punts one 39 yard meaningless punt in a game (a total gimme) - he's automatically scored the approximate functional equivalent to a sack from a DE, a 40 yard TD reception from a WR, a pair of TD plunges from inside the 5 yard line from an RB (all FAR from total "gimme points").......etc. Now imagine one owner getting DOUBLE GIMME points. I could go on here, but the point should beclear.

This is not a problem when all players have 1 Punter and 1 Kicker - but it's a ridiculous skewing of the results with the arguments of the shortsighted. If you don't believe me, let me know how many $20M players you've ever seen bid up in EFS. Talk about warping the game to a new low.

It's absurd to think a player who doesn't even get his uniform dirty, who makes non-contact contributions maybe a half dozen or so times a game, who isn't even considered a real football player on his NFL team (or by the majority of fans and observers) ...... gets to have such an overwhelming influence on the results ofour derivatively scoredsimulations (i.e., games).

I won't even address the DOUBLE KICKER angle - I doubt it would be grasped by some.

The bottom line is due to the inherent differences in EFS' derivative scoring of real life NFL production, we get stark distinctions between Special Teamers and "everydown 'real' NFL players." What would be more ridiculous than having a Punter/Kicker lead EFS in scoring - topping Peyton Manning, something very likely if he maintains double duties .... in a dome no less? What a corruption of the game - the first clue is a $20M+ bid onthe guy.

Also, by allowing such a warped approach to pollute EFS competition nullifies years of skillful competition ... and all for what? EFS owners compete for years making personnel moves, roster managment decisions, draft selections within their own very subjectively defined objectives ... all to create a little edge here, a little edge there. Now you see some clowns bidding up a mediocre player to absurd amounts.

Next, it is so drastically different than the game we're supposed to parallel ... the NFL - that it's actually shameful. We'd be a laughingstock to anyone knowledgeable who caught wind of this. "HEY EVERYBODY, THERE'S THIS LEAGUE SEEKING STUDS TOUGH ENOUGH TO COMPETE WITH THE BIG DOGS. THEIR BEST PLAYER HAS 25% OF HIS SALARY CAP ON HIS53 MAN ROSTER DUMPED ON A MEDIOCRE PUNTER FOR THE FALCONS. WHAT A JOKE!!!"

Let's keep it legit around here.

And you thought we had a problem with attrition last December - you wait to see how well it'll be received to have this wonderful game so magically designed with this delicate balance of measure/countermeasure/pull/counterpull ... to have Michael Koenen lead the league in scoring.

If you got Koenen prior to his dual duties development, I have no beef with you.

But if you're one of those losers bidding him up to $20+M, what is wrong with you? It takes zero skill to run up a big UFA bid - you just have to be the greediest, most selfish a-hole in the league witha lust to find the easy way out ... to back into a title.

"HEY LOOK AT ME - MY $23M PUNTER/KICKER LED ME TO THE CHAMPIONSHIP!!!!" Wouldn't that make one feel filthy to win like that? One would think so.

It'd just look so RIDICULOUS to other sites and observers in December of '06. "Get this. EFS is the one league where 63% of the teams who won their Titles had Michael Koenen on them ... at $21,600,000. HAHAHAHAHHA!!!!"

It'd look even worse in March of '06 when the orphan count skyrockets exponentially. How many folks want to compete in a league where the Falcons' Punter creates scoring disadvantages that make Larry Johnson's second half of '05 seem negligible?

Simply put, this is the time to distinguish EVERYDOWN PLAYERS from SPECIAL TEAMERS. To those who consider the categories equivalents - I recommend you steer clear of logical discourse.

Nasty

[mikea]

well good morning!!!! finally someone is making sense... everyday players and special team players are a different breed...can you imagine Tuesday morning bragging how your fantasy team beat up on a team that weekend and you owe it all to your punter... people would be going WHAT THE FUCK!!!!!... yea i got a real good deal on a punter... i onlyspent25 million.. yea hes the MVP of EFS... hey has any NFL teams spent 25 million on a punter.... i though we were trying to emulate the nfl....

[JPN]

One thing folks need to know going in - is that EFS has wiselyattempted to engineer the scoring rules in such a way as to create roughly similar bell curves for the scoring ofall positions across the board .... with the one exception that QB is rightfullyawarded a small premium since it carries sucha premium on the NFL field.

Simply put, the best players at each position areto score roughly similarly by design, and the curve fills out the rest of the way down. Nothing is perfect, but EFS does an exceptionally good job of executing strong coding.

Because of this well-intentioned effort and the fact EFS can only score based on what a player "produces" in measurable states ---to allow a special teams player, such asa Punter for example, to score similarly with an equivalently elitemiddle-linebacker - it was necessary to award a lot of points to that Punter for doing essentially nothing... while the MLB/ILB to keep up, has to keep grinding with solos, assists, sacks, passes defense, forced fumbles, picks, fumble recoveries.....etc.

The reason Punters get a whole lot of points for doing a whole lot of nothing - is they do so little meaningful statistically, that it was necessary to award them a lot for nothing ... to keep them roughly on par with the other positions. This might not make sense to everybody, but I'm sure a number of you guys get it.

The whole EFS scoring on Special Teamers (i.e., Punters and Kickers) is fundamentally different than everydown players. They score a lot for a little - because they do a little that has been pre-engineered to translate into the equivalent production of players who actually doa lot over the course of an NFL game.

The fact there are owners out there seeking an EASY way to a title with the SUPER PUNTER approach is pitiful. I haven't seen anyone bidding up Koenen through the stratosphere, but if I do - it'll be disappointing.

As much as I respect some of the posters who've mentioned theMike Vrabels and De'Angelo Halls of the world.........etc., you folks should wake upon so many levels. If you have a Punter taking 25% of a $100,000,000 salary cap - and 60 other players to account for, 52 Active, 8 Practice Squad ...... that should be a pretty damned good indicator of just how ludicrous this scenario is. It's not a good sign when your Punter commandsTWENTY TIMES as much as every other player on your roster on average.

Summing up, we will either act intelligently and with some degree of foresight - or we'll act foolishly, clumsily,like myopic chumps too short-sighted to ever learn anything meaningful about anything... until AFTER it happens and when it's too late to fix.Let's prove we can figure something out in advance.

Nasty

[perriconer]

Well even though I didn't understand about 25% of what JPN was saying, I think he agreed with me.

Like I said lower punter scoring. That is all that needs to be done. Reward punters for doing something good (I20, FC, over 45 yard average) not just for doing something. Every other position points are awarded for accomplishments (gaining yards, tackles, sacs, TD's etc)

[Pault351]

Guys,

I think we can resolve this by agreeing that special teams are "special". We allow every other player to score all points on offense or defense, regardless of position. Let's just allow Punters and kickers to score punter or kicking points, period. Let the owner start him as an XP or an XK. That's all he gets.

I agree though, that I think this is a short term anomaly. I certainly wouldn't bid him up. I also like the idea of eliminating Punter yardage. They all kick it about the same yardage, let's work on the "inside the 20" and"fair catch" stats and award more points for that.

The other problem is that owners have submitted bids given the posted rules. How does EFS change the rules at this late date, just two weeks before the season starts? I'm just glad I don't have to make it fair for everyone.

Paulie

[mikea]

NFL.com's Adam Schefter reports Falcons kicker/punter/kickoff specialist Michael Koenen could be on the verge of doing something that no NFL player has done in 25 years. Koenen could be the first player to kick, punt and kick off in a game, and do it for an extended period. The last player with 10-plus punts, 10-plus kickoffs and 10-plus field-goal attempts in the same season was the Rams' Frank Corral in 1981. Corral punted 89 times, kicked off 70 more and attempted 26 field goals. It's not that Koenen couldn't do it. He has been the Falcons' best kicking weapon this summer, connecting on each of his five field goals, including kicks from 50 and 51 yards. Plus, he already has demonstrated a strong leg on punts and kickoffs, jobs he performed last season for Atlanta after signing with the team as an undrafted free agent from Western Washington. no player has done this in 25 years...

if this isn't an aberration i don't know what is...a season of fantasy football shouldn't be decided by an aberration

[perriconer]

It could also be the waive of the future. Saving an extra roster spot for another player. Aberration or not, it still needs to be addressed

[perriconer]

The wave too, hey I am still trying to figure out what impervious means

[tec]

I dont know where this discussion is going, and I too would not want a season decided by an 'aberration', but one thing I would not be in favor of is a change in scoring rules or points awarded for multiple positions this close to the beginning of the season.

If one looks at the relative positions of PK and PN in the overall scoring scheme in EFS, using enhanced scoring for 2005 season, the highest ranked punter ranked about 178th overall. Neil Rackers was the highest ranked PK, he ranked 25th. Koenen was the 15th ranked PN last year.....

One could argue that Rackers owners got a boost due to his number of FG opportunities and the length of those FG's last year. Granted he was a one position player....

What we are doing at this point is speculating about what M Koenen might do this season. I for one would not want to over react on this issue before we see what the implications are...granted he might just score 30+ ppg .....who knows?

in terms of scoring, perhaps punters and kickers should have their ppg averages shaved by 2 or 3 by lowering their scoring, but that is an issue to consider in the offseason, not 2 weeks before the season starts....

I believe that EFS has captured the essence of Special Teams players, who by all accounts have dramatic impacts upon whether a team has an opportunity to win or lose a game. Punters impact the outcome by generating field position, or lack there of. PK can actually win or lose a game with last second FG....and those are rightly and up to this point, fairly accurately portrayed by the scoring in EFS. They are not the highest scoring player(s) but their impact upon the game is accurately reflected in the EFS scoring.

These guys may not be out there tackling, running and catching butevery successful playoff team have efficient Special Teams units, those that do not are not successful Playoff teams.

I guess what I am trying to say here is that I don't feel a major fix is needed for PN and PK, that EFS has done a very good job of creating appropriate levels of value for those players. Any changes, and I would argue they should be minor, should occur in the offseason, not this close to the start of the season.

tc

[JPN]

tec,

You seem like a nice guy, whoever you are.

Unfortunately, your comments show that you do not understand or properly appreciate the issues.

This is not rocket science here - we are not splitting the atom. You've conflated the issues - and thus assuredly made them unnecessarily confusing to some ... including yourself.

As a preliminary matter, we must ASSUME Koenen will start at both positions for purposes of this discussion. Why? Because if he doesn't, the discussion is MOOT. There is no practical import otherwise.

Moving on.

The average starting K scored roughly 15 ppg. The average starting P scored roughly 15 ppg. Punters are about as steady a producer as there is in EFS due to how EFS scores their "production" coupled with the "nature" of their "production."

To have 1 *mediocre* special teams player outscoringLaDainian Tomlinson is absurd.

Again - just WHY do you think a Punter has $20M bids on him?

Do you not understand the enormous positional separation at issue here???

This is part of the essence of the DIFFERENCES between Special Team players - and "everydown 'real' players."

Also, if you want to wait until AFTER the season to address - it'll have been too late. Mark my words on that one.

Nasty

[tec]

JPN-

i for one havent seen a PN go for $20 MM, obviously in whatever league you are in the guy who is bidding that much for him is making some grand assumptions about Koenen that may not even occur....

given the number of posts here on this subject, we have probably reached the 80% solution....

now its time for someone from EFS to tell us what they plan to do...

tc

[perriconer]

The bid I am speaking is in LG 11 and is now at $22M but that is over 5 years. It's 4.4 M per for 5 years. The latest bid was made by one of the men that runs EFS (Tom Lorenz)

[chinchilla]

I haven't spoken up on this as of yet, and my opinion is that he should be able to be scored for what he actually does as anyone else that takes the field.

But come on 4.4 x5 on him, I wouldn't do that if you guaranteed me an extra 10-15 points a week for him. That is just insane.

But my gripe with this issue is simply this: Will EFS just make a ruling? Just like the other things that get neglected in the forums that people post to have looked at, just do Something, even if it is wrong.

Obviously Tom is in tune with what is going on since he is an active participant in a bidding war for this "magical" kicker, so we know where the ruling will be. But can we just get an answer to this. The season is a couple weeks away!!!!!

[jwsmen]

AMEN, BROTHA!

[JPN]

Actually, that kicker is a "magical kicker" unless a sensible ruling comes down.

I see it clear as day, and I'm not too bad at understanding this stuff. However, no way in hell I ever place even a .350 bid on the guy- it's just a weak-ass way to compete in my opinion .... completely corrupts the skillful resolution of the results for the reasons enunciated previously in greater detail.

There's a very sensible and simpleway to resolve this. Simply preclude players whose primary duties are on Special Teams to score outside of one Special Teams role. If anyone has ANY trouble understanding WHY this is sensible, just pick up the phone.

Lastly,it's just been brought to our attentionthat a member of theEFS Management TEAM is going bonkers onKoenen. First off, that guy is a good owner and a good competitor, so aside from this comment, I'm not even going to touch that one at this point - butone would think theEFS Management Team wouldhave the most at stake in ensuring this matter is handledintelligently,with measureddeliberation andwith unerring foresight.

We don't need to screw it up first , only to try to patch it up later after the imminentorphan acceleration that will most assuredly ensue in December. We need to stop making bummer decisions thatforce us to backpedal intodamage control later ondown the road.

Simply stated, we can fix it now in simple and straightforward fashion - because the concerns have been laid out in plain english, as has been a plan for resolving the issue.

Parting Shot: who wants to play in a fantasy league where a mediocrePunter/Kicker outscores Tomlinson? It'd be a total discredit to the exceptionally good product that is EFS. This is one black eye we can duck.

JPN

[Lestat]

Will you guys take it easy on Tom? He works hard. At this moment he is busy "carpet bombing" UFA in league 2000.

I'm sure he'll get to this issue when he is done acquiring Koenen in each of his leagues, except league 67 that is.

[chinchilla]

ROFL. That is classic and I'm sure true. But like i said in an earlier post, we need to start addressing some of the things that have been posted in the forums, and not worrying about trying to corner the market on some magical "punter" Can we get a RULING on this. Or do we "have" to wait until Tom has acquired him in all the leagues that he can????????????????????

[Bluecaterpillar]

JPN & All:
I for one strongly disagree with most points and think the rules should NOT be altered:
1) The rules exist and should not be changed in a whim just because they become inconvenient... if you have the cash to bid on the kid, do so. If not, you did not plan adequately. DO NOT change the rules year over year because you are not included.

1a) Case in point: I know of at least 2 leagues decided in 2004 by RB/FB Reuben Droughns... Tough luck. He who acquired the guy could start the equivalent of 2 RBs in Enh. Scoring leagues... good for them (nope, twasnt me).

2) I take offense at the LT vs. Kicker comment... LT or RB is a more sexy position with a generally admitted higher exposure, knowledge, media covering, etc.
But kickers are part of the game and New England won 2 bowls thanks to Vinatieri not wavering... so the "VALUE" of a position is a mis-argument... Come on! You know better than that. Parcells wants Vanderjagt in Dallas to win 3 more games, close games, decided by a fieldgoal... He did not go after Edge James because he's a "better" runner than what he had.

2a) Look at TO... Vandie might win them more game than TO!! :-)

Overall, there is a scoring rule, that's what it is.
The feat Koenen would accomplish -- IF HE COULD STAY HEALTHY -- is a bigone, worth being rewarded. Bid forthe guy.

I hope Tom and SID stickto therules, don't listen to whiners.
I must go now since I don't own the guy,he's already on 2/3 rosters and I am bidding on himin that lg. where he's free.
-Blue

[JungleHamsters]

Most people arnt saying that he shouldnt score the points, most think he should be a XK instead of an XP cuase he still scores points but the it does keep scoring somewhat lower since you wont be scoring 2 kickers with one that punts, instead youd be scoring 2 punters with one that also kicks

And if he switches position in EFS nobody should be complaining as positions switches happen with playes all the time.

Most are just asking that he still gets all the points he gets but list him as a placekicker so the effect is lessen then if he is still a punter

[Natalie Portman]

Well, it's been 14 days, andto my great surprise,there has been no response from EFS on the most relevant issue related to this topic.

It may or may not be too late to consider rule changes for 2006, but the question of Positional Status remains unanswered.

In 3 pre-season games, Michael Koenen is the only member of the Atlanta Falcons to attempt a Field Goal or Punt the football, so the question of IF he will enter the season with both jobs has been all but answered.

Again, in that circumstance, will he be listed as XK or XP? There will be no legitimate basis to select one or the othershould he indeed be both, but there is clearly a degree of minimizing the aberration if he is declared a Placekicker. The best score for a pure Punter in 2005 was 26 points, and there were only five other times when a Punter bested 22 in a week. Placekickers scored 40+ pointsthirteen different timeslast year including several 50+ performances.

Through 3 pre-season games, a small sample to be sure,he is at 43 pts/gm.

He has posted a low score of 32 pts, and a high score of 63 pts.

To give that perspective, the best avg score in the NFL during 2005 was Carson Palmer's 33.06, andonly fiveother players reached the plateau of 30 pts/gm.

It's interesting that the current scoring system will make Michael Koenen a virtual lock to lead EFS in 2006 points. He will certainly have some sub-30 point weeks, but in all likelihood not very many. Meanwhile, his 40+ and 50+ performances should be expected routinely. He will not need to do anything unusual to surpass a score of 40, and should be expected to average at least that much.

Why can't it be known if he will be listed as a Punter or a Placekicker?

[Lestat]

EFS management is currently discussing the topic, I expect Tom to respond to this very shortly.

Bryon

[JPN]

Comments interspersed in navy below in response to Caterpillar's perceptions.

JPN & All:
I for one strongly disagree with most points and think the rules should NOT be altered:
1) The rules exist and should not be changed in a whim just because they become inconvenient... if you have the cash to bid on the kid, do so. If not, you did not plan adequately. DO NOT change the rules year over year because you are not included.

Caterpillar, in the majority of my leagues - I am one of the most favorably positioned cap-wise and draft pick wise. My position is not one of self-interest, as your comment implies. I would have very little trouble acquiring Koenen, particularly earlier - when my understanding of his production is ahead of the curve. More facts: Koenen will never play on my team, and if he ever did - I would commit to solely one position.



1a) Case in point: I know of at least 2 leagues decided in 2004 by RB/FB Reuben Droughns... Tough luck. He who acquired the guy could start the equivalent of 2 RBs in Enh. Scoring leagues... good for them (nope, twasnt me).

Droughns playing RB and scoring through the FB prism does not support your cause. It was a result widely discredited.



2) I take offense at the LT vs. Kicker comment... LT or RB is a more sexy position with a generally admitted higher exposure, knowledge, media covering, etc.
But kickers are part of the game and New England won 2 bowls thanks to Vinatieri not wavering... so the "VALUE" of a position is a mis-argument... Come on! You know better than that. Parcells wants Vanderjagt in Dallas to win 3 more games, close games, decided by a fieldgoal... He did not go after Edge James because he's a "better" runner than what he had.

2a) Look at TO... Vandie might win them more game than TO!! :-)

Overall, there is a scoring rule, that's what it is.
The feat Koenen would accomplish -- IF HE COULD STAY HEALTHY -- is a bigone, worth being rewarded. Bid forthe guy.

You're asking if the kicker/punter can stay healthy? You gotta be kidding me. If you want Koenen on your roster, go nab him. To me, it's beyond disgraceful to lower yourself to collecting freebies like that. If you want him in any league I'm in, you won't face any competition from me - knock yourself out on the fact you realize there is a super kicker/punter out there.



I hope Tom and SID stickto therules, don't listen to whiners.
I must go now since I don't own the guy,he's already on 2/3 rosters and I am bidding on himin that lg. where he's free.

You're a real stud, caterpillar - a real beast.

[Bluecaterpillar]

Fugget about it...
Again, rules exist, why bend them? Just because you don't want to bid?
I am surprised... As for the restof your comments, we've been through that. I am no stud, no beast, nothing compared to your greatness. But I am a bit puzzled by your own wavering sentiment about rules not meant to be changed, when it used to being an unwavering sentiment. Times change, I guess.
Again, the guy is allocated to other players in 1003 and 3030, so I will be another victim like 14 other owners. I'll suck it up. In 1002, I will try to nab the guy and hope that EFS sticks to its rules and guns.
Cheers, have a beer, relax, enjoy the SD weather and LT's performance and real life football. :dude:
-Blue Stud, indeed... no small thanks to Viagra. Purple stud, really.

[perriconer]

Catrerpillar, it doesn't bother you that something like this could decide many leagues outcomes? Leagues where money is involved? I joined a league like this to play in a league where football knowledge wins out. How to run a full team with a salary cap. Managerial and coaching knowledge. Not to be in a league decided by someone who just happened to be lucky to have this guy on their roster. This is approximately an extra 15-20 pts on someones score every week. It will turn an average team into a contender, a good team into a league winner, and a bad team into an average team.

If Tom is going to decide then we already know what that decision is, since he is bidding on him, or trading for him in every league.

The lesser of the evils would be to put him at XK for this year, test out a new scoring system in a beta league, and hopefully change the scoring for next year.

[perriconer]

Also in response to you statement "rules exist why bend them"? This is why we have these forums. To discuss the changing of rules that don't seem fair. We don't want to bend this rule, we want to change it.

[tec]

I wholeheartedly agree that Koenen should be listed at PK this year, that only seems fair....even tho in the only league i have him he is listed at PN.

my limited understanding of EFS management decisions leads me to believe that Tom L wont be the only one involved in this decision, there are probably more than 3 who will ultimately decide ....

anyway we have 12 days til the season starts, actually less if you start on the Thurs eve game, so lets hope that decision is made soon...

nice lively comments here, make for great reading....

tc

[tec]

possible downsides to the Koenen situation from Atlanta's point of view-

a. I assume he will do the PK, PN and Kickoff chores...by the last 5-6 games of the season his efficiency at all 3 positions could diminish significantly due to all this 'work'.

b. it probably wont take any NFL coaching genius long to figure out that if you target Koenen on kickoffs, if he is blocked hard, etc. that will wear him out too or perhaps hinder his abilities. I expect to see him targeted by KO teams eventually...

c. if the Falcons should lose Koenen to injury during a game they will have a backup identified for his kicking chores, but i doubt that person will be very effective at KO, long FG or perhaps even punting.

so even tho this sounds like a very good idea-saving a roster slot for another position player- the downsides are significant and it will be interesting to see how long Atlanta goes in the season with only one multi-purpose kicker.

tc

[Bluecaterpillar]

perriconer wrote: Catrerpillar, it doesn't bother you that something like this could decide many leagues outcomes? Leagues where money is involved? I joined a league like this to play in a league where football knowledge wins out. How to run a full team with a salary cap. Managerial and coaching knowledge. Not to be in a league decided by someone who just happened to be lucky to have this guy on their roster. This is approximately an extra 15-20 pts on someones score every week. It will turn an average team into a contender, a good team into a league winner, and a bad team into an average team.

If Tom is going to decide then we already know what that decision is, since he is bidding on him, or trading for him in every league.

The lesser of the evils would be to put him at XK for this year, test out a new scoring system in a beta league, and hopefully change the scoring for next year.



Rich:
You make a valid point re: money leagues and I had not considered this part... been wrong countless times today alone and it will happen again.
However, what does bother me is that if Koenen is good at it he could revive a trend (why not... who was the Titans punting and kicking a year ago?-- in a bind, admittedly and due to injury to the other kicker).
Thing is, an NFL team could use a strong leg on both chores, etc.: it saves a body on the 53-man roster and why not? I mean, if your punter can also kick, why not use the guy like in Aussie Rugby or Rugby League? Leg strength can be used both ways.

If this were to happen, then the kicker takes a larger dimension, has a bigger job, more noticeable, more responsibilities. Thus, when we translate to EFS, gets more points.
So why not keep the rules as they are? I understand it might change the outcome of leagues -- and David JPN lost my point about Droughns, because the guy decided of more than a few titles in Enh. Scoring leagues, I am sure of it -- but then again, if the guy is UFA, get the freebie and if not, shit happens.

I am losing my point: Koenen is getting a much bigger job, a bigger role, saving a body on the roster (or sometimes 2 for teams carring a place kicker, a kicker and a punter) and thus it should translate into EFS as planed, because the rules exist, have been in place for a long time and an inconvenience should not change them.

Last but not least: money teams, in a way, are like a club: you have your own entry rules & requirements... so you could technically agree to a normal 12/16 vote to rule Koenen out for the sake of fairness. High-rollers have a lot more at stake and it somewhat softens my stance -- if the normal voting rules of your league apply.

But then, keep in mind that Koenen could revive an older trend of single kicker (???) or get injured or strain his quads or what else. So I think we should live with it.
-Blue

[JPN]

My main comment is that I enjoyed "TEC's" analysis - very forward looking .... rea; good stuff IMO.

By the way, is the TEC poster "Tom Cool?"

As for Koenen, my point was likely lost in all the clutter. My vote is as in years' past, any player can accumulate points in whatever way he generates them ... but with this one sensible exception: you can't let SPECIAL teams compound onto SPECIAL teams.

The reasons were already stressed previously, so without a big re-hash, here's a brief summation of partof the analysis.

The way Special Teamers score huge chunks of points is out of necessity to get them to fit a similar profile to "Everydown Players"- as they only get a handful of opps a game. Simply put, they HAVE to score in enormous bites because they're not on the field the whole game banging it out picking up one point here, two points there, another one, a three... etc.

As such, they should be the only category excluded from compound points. It's a very sensible, tinyand carefully defined exception. It's an exceptionally set of facts rarely before seen - so to sensibly exclude it for good reason makes sense.

Aside from that, it's fine if Efren Herrera (a kicker back in the day) gets points for a non-Special Teams' scored play. In fact, everything would make perfect sense - but to simply disallow Punters from combining with Kickers.

Again, it would make EFS look Mickey Mouse to have the highest scoring MVP of the league be Atlanta's dome kicker/punter; our simulation intended to mirror the NFL as closely as possible would fail miserably; and the December attrition rate would spike upwards far beyond normal levels with leagues decided by such a freakish/non-skill based quirk in the rules.

Someone mentionedReuben Droughns skewing seasons as if it supported his point. Nope. I believe they legislated Reuben Droughns' type situations out after it skewed the game. This is one time where we can get it right BEFORE sucking tailpipe.

JPN

[chinchilla]

SECOND VERSE SAME AS THE FIRST.

Just waiting on a RULING at some point.

[kgard929]

From KFFL

Atlanta Falcons (http://www.kffl.com/team/7/nfl) have decided P/PK Michael Koenen (http://www.kffl.com/player/12271/nfl) will be their place kicker in 2006. They still haven't decided if he'll also be their punter. Head coach Jim Mora (http://www.kffl.com/player/8312/nfl) will wait until after Thursday's final preseason game, Aug. 31, before deciding if he wants to bring in someone else to handle the punting. He's concerned about giving one guy all three jobs, though Koenen certainly looks capable of handling the load. Frank Corral was the last kicker to do triple duty on a regular basis. In 1981, he had 89 punts, kicked off 70 times and attempted 26 field goals for the Los Angeles Rams. The Falcons (http://www.kffl.com/team/7/nfl) will scan the list of available punters after NFL (http://www.kffl.com/team/77/nfl) teams make their final round of cuts. If there's someone worth picking up, they might go that route. Or, if they decide to free up a roster spot for another position, they'll let Koenen do all three jobs. "That's a real positive, especially if we feel like we need someone else for special teams," Mora said.

[Bluecaterpillar]

JPN wrote: [...]
Again, it would make EFS look Mickey Mouse to have the highest scoring MVP of the league be Atlanta's dome kicker/punter; our simulation intended to mirror the NFL as closely as possible would fail miserably; and the December attrition rate would spike upwards far beyond normal levels with leagues decided by such a freakish/non-skill based quirk in the rules.

[...]
JPN

Since I had already invoked my right to be wrong once yesterday, I waited past midnight +4:00 GMT to be wrong again... I like that point the most out of all others made and in a way it compiles on top of Perricone's point that Koenen would skew money leagues.
I guess debates foster better ideas and I agree that a lot of owners would consider orphaning even more if EFS was mostly decided by a kicker / punter...
That disavantage indeed outweighs the benefits of sticking to the rule for the rule's sake.

I still hope there would be a point to fairly reward Koenen for pulling a unique, worthy feat... but not in such a way that it would turn off so many owners that EFS would suffer as a whole.
-Blue in the face.

[Natalie Portman]

Confirming the post by kgard929, the link below confirms that Michael Koenen will be the Placekicker but may NOT continue Punting. There should be no more debate over position... change him to XK.

http://www.ajc.com/falcons/content/sports/falcons/stories/0830falrail.html

[tec]

Nasty-

"By the way, is the TEC poster "Tom Cool?"

yep that was me....

thanks

tc

[mikea]

bluecat your a cool dude for admitting your were wrong... im happy to see that you see our point... this is for the betterment of the WHOLE efs league... and tom your always cool...

[JPN]

Some thoughts.

Natalie, thank you for your contributions to the debate and discussion. It was very sage of you to first recognize the meaningfulness ofsuch a scenario. Many folks were tuned out and not even paying attention, including me.

One thing I might add is this: even if Koenen does get just single duty, it is *still* necessary to hammer out the distinction between a player awarded SPECIAL teams production on top of SPECIAL teams production versus all other player scenarios. We need to be *ahead* of the curve and forward-thinking. Why get a black eye when a little foresight can surgically clean it up?

As for "tec" being Tom Cool, gottadig that news. When "tec" was born with that surname, he had a lot to live up to - and he did. Tom Cool is a stud in my book, and has been for a long time.

As for "blue cat," it's always fresh to see a guy with an open mind. You have to.Why? Simply because more light can frequentlybe cast on a subject than when the original opinion was initially generated.

We all can forge an opinion that might be swayed upon further reflection of additional information - but it takes a trulyopen-mindedperson objectively searching for truth tosimply share a new position that was counter to an earlier position. It takes a big man to do that, so my hat is off to Blue Cat - very cool.

JPN

P.S. Adamczyk, I think you coined a new nicknamed for the Caterpillar. I like Blue Cat.

[sid]

Can't win if you do, can't win if you don't...

I'm going to make this simple, in the past when we have tried to chage rules at the last minute... We get blistered... NOW it seems we will get blistered if we don't, well we won't.

Keith (FantasyGM) who has now replaced Tom Lorenz (Resigned during this fire storm), agrees with me and has posted a nicer explaination elsewhere, this discussion is over for this year. I appreciate all the input (not condecending), and 4 or 5 of the most respected owners in EFS dissagree with us have made their point clear. "This decision will dismanttle EFS". Orphans will soar, we are bankrupt, the king is dead, long live the Queen, etc. If so.. so be it.

I on the other hand think this is a meer bump in the road... If you want this anomoly, go get him. Give up 2 ones and 2 twos and see where you are next year! If this guy gives you a ring...GET HIM!

Personaly, if I were the coach of the opposing team, I would get some "Head-Hunter" to go ring is bell on every KO and Punt to the point that he could not put a bowliing ball in a wishing well. But that is just me.


And finally, for what it is worth, the only change we might make for NEXT year is if you are an XK, your XP might be counted OOP, or vise versa... other than that. This issue is done.

If you want to quit because of this, please quit now, I have 19 guys on the waiting list. It won't be a problem.

Thanks,
sid

BTW, natalie portman.... plese lose the huge Fonts, it's irritating, and does not help your case! Trust me I'm not the only one that feels that way.

[Natalie Portman]

18 days later, the original question stillremains unanswered. Will Michael Koenenbe XK or XP?

[sid]

For some unknown reason I like your attitude. To whit...He will be listed as stated at ourlads.com, per the rules. IF he is listed at 2 positions there, we will then make a final decision. We will NOT decide before the club decides and if listed twice, then we will decide, not before.

[chinchilla]

This was addressed and the statement of how EFS is going to handle this was done under the Thread that was entitled "EFS Statement Regarding M. Koenen"

Quote "EFS' official depth chart reference is Ourlads.com and as of September 1, 2006, Ourlads still has Koenen listed as the Falcons punter while Tony Yelk is the place kicker. EFS positions will become final for the 2006 season the Thursday after the week 1 games are completed. If he is still listed as the Falcons punter and only a punter at this time, then he will remain at this position for 2006.

If Koenen islisted as botha punter and kicker on or before the EFS positional deadline of September 14, 2006. Then we will make an arbitrary decision as to his official EFS position for 2006. This decision will be made within one day of learning of his dual role for the Falcons. No matter what position or positions he plays at,EFS will award or deduct fantasy points based on all of his on-the-field performances using the scoring systems currently in place." End Quote

That is a pretty clear answer as to how it will be resolved, and what will be the determining factor in the decision making process.

This would be consistant with how other players are dealt with at other positions in EFS. They can change up to that point, depending on the Depth Charts at the start of the season.

EDIT - Sid has responded as well, as i was typing this up.

[JPN]

Now that the official ruling has come down, there's no sense bashing it - or the decisionmakers.

And though I have a perfectly framed perspective on the strategic advantage at stake here, all I got to say is no double special teams player will grace any roster I ever own - and I'll justleave it at that.

In better news, we have NFL Opening Day Kickoff in 143 hours and 17 minutes. Gotta be diggin' that - the smell of football in the air!!!

JPN

[sid]

JPN, Thanks for objecting, yet accepting the decision, I hope others do. There was no good answer here. I went with Stari Decisis(SP)... you get my point I hope.

[Natalie Portman]

Just to confirm, Ourlads is considered the source even over a recently updated atlantafalcons.com?

Ourlads will likely get it right by this weekend, but the Falcons official website has Koenen correctly listed as both.

The articlethat I already posted the link for does offerthe firmestquote possible right from the Head Coach, and the team's website was adjusted in accordance:


Falcons coach Jim Mora announced after practice Tuesday that Michael Koenen, the team's punter last season, has won the kicker job by making seven of seven field-goal attempts in the exhibition season.

"We were just really concerned about kicking," Mora said. "Who it was going to be? Now we know that it's Michael Koenen."

With the most important part of the kicking game settled, the Falcons must figure out if they can find a punter to replace Koenen or if they want a kickoff specialist or both.

[perriconer]

Thanks Stan


We can put this argument to rest until Koenan is listed as a XK on Ourlads. Then the XP vs XK debate can begin.

Another reason why EFS is the best is that we have these forums to argue our cases.

[FantasyGM]

I think it's only a matter of time until Ourlads updates the Falcons depth chart to show him as the XK.

[sid]

Sweet Natalie,

One more time, ourlads.com is the official site for efs. On many occasions through out our time running this place, ourlads has been closer than... yes... even the team sites, nothing has changed. If a change is in the works, you will find it there first.

As to the head coach... The tuna says he is not pissed at T.O. either... who do you beleive?

[sid]

This is our final answer! XK, he is listed as both, so he is a Place Kicker.

Unless that changes by next week, final positions are set AFTER week one.